What are the essential one or two most important things that are blocking you from moving forward with your Hydropower site ideas or plans?
Now is your chance to pipe up about what is the biggest thing you think is preventing you from starting or completing your Small or Micro Hydroelectric project?
For example: I’m blocked by; ‘Regulations…’, ‘Cash or capital issues…’, ‘Understanding the site…’, ‘Not sure how to proceed with…’, etc. You fill in the missing words in your comment on this post, Try to keep discussion focused on the issue that most impacts your progress.
Use the comments on this post to gain or give insight and provide feedback between all the readers.
This is also where a few of our more experienced Renewable Hydropower readers can really help by adding your comments to any threads as you have insight..
Sincerely,
Jess
PS. This is a great time to think hard about what is really blocking your way forward with hydropower.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I live on the Clinch River which is about 50 feet wide, 20 inches deep, lots of flow but no head. I have a grid tie solar and want to add the hydro but have not really found a technology answer that will produce the power I need. Finding an affordable solution is what I need. I am ready to go if I could find a device to put in the river.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
How much power are you looking for? A few kW or more?
It sounds like you have grid tie with inverters already. If you are looking for a smaller 1-10 kw alternative you might consider a vertical turbine or if you have sufficient flow an undershot wheel may work. These undershot designs are not as efficient as others, but for small DIY systems on a river they should be considered. Belt or chain drives can be used to match generator frequency or if an inverter is used that may not be as big a requirement.
Take a look at a “Vertical axis water turbine”. They can be found in 5 to 10 kW sizes but I’m not sure about 20inch depth though. They like to be about 10-30% of the stream depth under the surface to get the fastest currents.
Is that reach of stream considered “navigable” by boats?
(Fed regulation potential issue there)
Sincerely,
Jess
May 7th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Jess,
Thanks for the website and blog…great source.
I have kind of the same issue. I have the flow, some head, construction ability, finances, administration management, etc…..but I just do not know how to structure the whole setup.
I need an experienced engineer or firm that help me do the deal. One must have respect for ones ignorance….
I need an advisor….I have not found anyone that has shown be the professionalism and expertise I need.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Jess,
Thanks for the website and blog…great source.
I have kind of the same issue. I have the flow, some head, construction ability, finances, administration management, etc…..but I just do not know how to structure the whole setup.
I need an experienced engineer or firm that cab help me do the deal. One must have respect for ones ignorance….
I need an advisor….I have not found anyone that has shown me the professionalism and expertise I need.
I live in 96040 zip code. Thanks, Ken
May 7th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
I am in a very similar position to Ken above, plus in New Zealand here we have a horrible piece of legislation called the Resource Management Act and we have to get permission to remove water from one point in my stream and return it in a second point!
But I really think that it is the lack of an adviser that is available at a ‘reasonable’ price that is the main obstacle for me.
Thanks for a wonderful website.
Frederick
May 8th, 2009 at 2:23 am
There is story that made me to get information about the small hydropower projects. I dont know, how it works but I think its work. I live in Lahore, one of the largest and biggest city of Pakistan. We are currently facing the problem of Electricity Shortage. Government is trying its level best to minimize the electricity shortage but it will take time to install and excute a hydro, thermal or combined cycle power plant on a large scale. On the other hand we are also facing the problem of Water Shortage. One day , I was just passing nearby drain water canal. The drain water was continuously going into the canal with a huge flow. I thought , can we use this waste water for the production of electricity if we install a small turbine near the drain. I think it works but how to promote this idea, i dont know. I am a mechanical Engineer and continously thinking about it. During searching, I found this site. I think it will help me.
Thanks
Waqas
May 8th, 2009 at 5:42 am
In West Tennessee, a client has a 500 acre farm that has wetlands formed by beaver dams on 2 springs. They have a 14 ft dam that backs up water in over 100 acres. The owner wishes to capitalize on the hydro power but is not familiar with in-line water turbine generators. The area has over 57″ of rainfall per year and has a sufficient volume to run 24/7 with a 24″ pipe. I believe this could be a very good additional farm income in selling renewable electricity. Is theitr anyone who specializes in small hydro power projects to partner with us on design and construction.
Kind regards,
Stephen
May 8th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Hi,
I live in Vermont on a stream that is constantly running. I don’t know much about hydroelectricity, but I’d like to find out if my stream is capable of producing enough for my one family house, which sits on a hill higher than the stream.
Our law makers in Vermont are all over renewable energy, they talk about wind, but never hydro, why.
Thanks
Pat
May 8th, 2009 at 7:39 am
I am living in a water mill along a river in the French Pyrenees. My main concern is the cost versus the revenues. The water head is some 4 meters but I am not sure of the water volume/flow rate since it varies considerably depending on local rainfall. Preliminary measurements indicate that I can expect an average flow of 1 m3 per second. According to the designer/factory of the turbine, these figures could mean some 30 Kw capacity with the use of their Ossberger turbine. However, the total investment (including generator) will be at least some US$160,000. Useful information can be found here: http://www.ossberger.de/cms/en/hydro/the-ossberger-turbine/
For me to go ahead it will all depend on how easy it is to get connected with the main electricity net and how much EDF (Electricity France) will pay me per KwH, but what also concerns me is how to structure the whole venture (sort of what Ken Green mentioned) and whether it would not give too much construction mess that would interfere with the beautiful natural surroundings of the site. So I am still undecided.
May 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I also live on a river like Richard Hudson above. I would like to produce all my power from hydro. I do have areas of brisk flow and 2-3 ft of water depth at normal river height, but I also have to contend with the river rising during heavy rains sometimes an additional 6 ft. I would need a floating platform or some device that can be submerged. Haven’t been able to find much info. One company offers an under water turbine but it needs 6 ft minimum water depth.
Any suggestions?
May 8th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I purchased a Mill site that had a 250kW hydro in the basement. The FERC License is still valid with 34 more years to it’s life.
I removed the pld turbine last year and part of the penstock. I am looking to replace the system with two smaller units that would sit side-by-side. I want this type of system for the fact that in the dead days of the summer when flowage is low I can still produce energy with at least one of the units while I cut the other unit out for repairs or maintenace.
Whindham atomation of Storrs,CT. has the same system going through the testing stages right now over in Webster,Ma.
The Dam ( 160 Ft. long) has just past inspection by FERC.
My concerns are that the State of Ct. has a operation that goes by the name of Ct. Clean Energy and that they have no funding availble for the rebuilding of my plant which is pegged at the cost of $400,000.00 to rebuild.
Does any one out there know of any other funding concepts? The plant should generate about $150,000.00 per year with all the types of income we can think of.
If you have any ideas please contact John at hydroman.john6@gmail.com
May 8th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
John Gauvin,
I just emailed you a few more questions regarding the site details and your funding needs. A bit more than comments can handle. It looks like an interesting project.
You should also look on the “DSIRE” Renewable Energy incentives as they have a great portfolio of each state, regional and federal incentive sources for different renewable programs.
The DSIRE site is at the following link:
http://www.dsireusa.org/
[I put a top level site link here instead of the original one - Cool map of Renewable Energy incentives]
BTW: You may need to raise the Small & Micro Hydro incentive issue with your local and federal government authorities. There’s a lot of lobbying going on that leaves Small Hydro out
Sincerely,
Jess
May 9th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
In Sri Lanka, mini hydro and micro hydro power generations are growing up with the help of governmental and private organizations. The biggest problem in Engineering point of view is the efficiency of the plant. Normally for all of the micro and mini hydro plants, traditional C2C three phase to single phase power conversion method is used with three phase induction generator. But the maximum output power can be taken without over stressing the generator is 50% of the generator’s rated power. After several studies I have developed and proposed a method to improve the output power up to 86% under normal operation of the machine. This configuration is preferable to called as C2R-R, and used to convert three phase power to two phase power. This will enhance the effectiveness of the micro hydro power generation and will be a good solution for energy crisis.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
[...] Great response to last week’s question regarding the most pressing issue you have in Small & Micro Hydro. See last week’s Small & Micro hydropower question post and comments here. [...]
May 14th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Ken Green,
We’ll have to see what we can do to get you a local small or micro hydropower expert that meets your standards.
Send me an email with your site details. We’ll try to get back with you to help in your search.
Sincererly,
Jess
DoradoVista, Inc.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Tharindu,
Your 3 phase to 2 phase conversion efficiency improvement sounds interesting. You are right to be concerned the unbalanced 3 phase load and reduced generator life.
Sincerely,
Jess
May 14th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
All,
As can be seen from the variety of comments there is a need for Small & Micro hydro for farms, ranches and community use throughout the world.
In many case the limiting factor is Hydro system financing and Hydropower engineering know how. We are going to be getting into both of these topics in the future. For now keep watching SmallHydro.com and thanks for your comments and questions. These are valuable for directing both the newsletter and blog contents.
If you have valuable insight into any of our topics please add a comment!
Sincerely,
Jess
May 14th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Jess – we emailed before but I just now found this via your email to me. i am wondering if you guys know anything about Turgo Turbines? From my Internet research, it sounds like it might fit my situation best. I have about 8 ft head and flow about 4-6 cfs (about 1800 gpm). If you have any experience with these things I would sure like to hear your opinions. Thanks much.– Jim
May 14th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Jim,
I am familiar with Turgo runners. They are an impulse turbine that can be used somewhat effectively for lower head higher flow applications than Pelton wheels mainly due to their ability to easily use more jets and therefore more flow. They are not quite as efficient as Pelton wheels but if you lack as much head but still have flow they can help. They also handle dirty water quite well.
With that said, I believe an 8ft head is too low for an effective Turgo application. Usually these need in excess of 30 ft or head for efficient use. They work a bit lower than Pelton but but 10 ft. See Gilkes for more since they patented the Turgo design in 1919.
At 8 ft of head you would be better off with a propeller turbine (if flow does not vary more than 10%), Kaplan regulated, Francis or PAT type, or a Banki-Mitchell crossflow or Ossberger style turbine with multiple sections for flow variation.
Of these hydro turbines the simple prop turbine is likely the cheapest hardware to deploy.
Sincerely,
Jess
May 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I run a micro data center business. I am considering finding a small hydro site and partnering with them to locate my business next to the site and drawing power and perhaps cooling from the river. I probably can only look in New England, ideally close to Boston. How does one find small hydro owners? Is there an organization they all belong to? A trade publication they all subscribe to? A convention they all attend?
May 15th, 2009 at 6:37 am
I have 2 issues I could use some advice or feedback on.
1. does anyone have any experience on affordable intake controls for small (1kw – 10 kw) hydro systems. Typically a water quality certificate requires that certain minimum bypass flows be left in the stream. They require that this be controlled and monitored. If some number of streamflow measurements are made along with stream stage measurements, a stage-discharge curve can be drawn. With this, one can determine the stream stage (or water level height) corresponsing to a certain flow. Theoretically, if you had a mechanical system with a float which would close a gate or valve when the stream dropped below a certain level, you could accomplish the necessary controls. Does anyone know of such a control system that someone has developed and/or built?
2. Does anyone know of a good source for turbines that are bigger than residential scale (i.e. can take more flow and/or head than the Harris or E S & D) but are not hugely expensive? I have one source, St. Onge Environmental, that sells turbines made in China. Does anyone have any experience with their products? Any other leads?
Thanks,
Ben
May 15th, 2009 at 6:40 am
To Alex Aminoff:
You can look up a list of dam owner in Mass. This info is available from the state dam safety department. I am in Vermont. If you need assistance with the design, permitting or installation of a hydro system, I could be of help. Feel free to contact me at 802-355-3049, if you would like to talk more.
thanks,
Ben
May 15th, 2009 at 7:37 am
I recently purchased an old mill house. There is an old stone damn across the property that holds back two ponds and a stream with approx 12ft of head and approx 6.0 gps falling over a water fall. 1. How do i go about determining if this is a viable option for generating electricity? 2. Who do I contact to get permission to put a wheel in front of the waterfall to generate electricity? 3. Who do I speak with about size of generator, size of wheel, etc?
May 15th, 2009 at 7:45 am
To Alex Aminoff:
Sounds like an interesting endeavor- Google has projects like this to provide power for massive server farms in the northwest. Computing takes energy, lots of energy – especially at high performance speeds.
You may also find FERC licensing info to be of use as well – See this site for “Complete list of issued licenses” –
http://www.ferc.gov/industries/hydropower/gen-info/licensing.asp
This sill give you site owner prelim contact info. Let us know how we can help.
Jess
May 15th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Steve Hess,
Your site has potential for at most about 1.25 kW. The problem with low flow and low head is the efficiency of power production. An overshot wheel with a belt drive may be your best option. Yet it will be expensive to deploy given the relatively low return. See Ben Gordesky’s comments for more on what it takes and who to contact locally in the north east.
Ben’s comment: http://smallhydro.com/200905/small-micro-hydro/whats-on-your-mind-regarding-small-micro-hydropower/comment-page-1/#comment-57
May 15th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Ben Gordesky,
We have a great source to meet your larger Micro to Small hydropower turbine needs, drop us an email regarding the particulars for your site(s). Email request to smallhydroturbines@smallhydro.com
Sincerely,
Jess
May 27th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I have a very small stream quite close to my famley home. It has a very consistant flow all year round with a significant head aprox.20meters.
I would love to be able to convert its obviousenergy to electricty if only to power and heat my home. Have tryed various contacts but nobody seems to have the will or the knowhow to take it on.
I live in south Tiperary Ireland
June 10th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
I am no expert, however have been pondering a river in Central Oregon USA with similar vision. I was thinking of two pelton wheels connected by a HUGE differential (rear end from biggest truck). The rotational torque of the “yoke” on the differential should be enough to turn several generators. As I said, I am no expert and would be very interested if it did work (as would the rest of the world). Happy pondering!
June 11th, 2009 at 3:27 am
While identifying a hydro potential site, diversion site on a stream and s suitable site for locating power house are marked on map. These sites are defined with geographical co-ordinates in terms of longitude and latitude. In absence of detailed survey of the area, elevations (above m.s.l.) are appriximately given on the basis of contours (map with contour interval of say 40 m.) Normally with these details pre-feasibility reports (PFR) are prepared and sites are allotted to private developers.
My question relates to a situation, when the actual elvations at the diversion site and power house (tail water level) are found to be different then the levels given in PFR. Will the given geographical co-ordinates (Long. & Lat.) govern the allotted site or the approximate elevations indicated in PFR will be the governing factor?
Comments are invited on the above issue.
June 11th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
I’ve got at least 1.25 litres per second falling straight down about 2.2 metres. I have been told there is nothing I can do with this, but I can’t see why it would turn some sort of water wheel. Any suggestions?
June 11th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
I have 311cuft/min of flow at 13ft of head. Currently my site has a 13ftx4ft Fitz overshoot wheel, but that’s it. I need to either put in a flume and all the associated drives to get to a generator OR install a ‘package’ system that I’ve seen from China or the US. What would you do?
I appreciate ANY advice.
Rick
June 17th, 2009 at 9:36 am
I have talked with several vendors regarding my 13ft/311cu/ft/min site. Since I have an existing Fitz overshoot wheel and the low head doesn’t match any of the turbine packages, they recommend using the wheel. My question is: Is it ok to use an off-the-shelf gearbox right off the wheel shaft to get the speed up to where I can use v-belts?
thanks,
Rick
June 19th, 2009 at 7:56 am
the design methodology of pico hydro design
Segun
July 1st, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Rick,
Regarding use of belts vs. gears (vs. direct speed matched design – in a perfect world!) heres my reply…
The basic issue for any generator to hydro turbine or water wheel system is that you must match the generator’s output frequency- function(generator poles & rpm) to the water wheel or turbine rotational speed efficiently. You must be cost effective and safe too.
So, the easiest way for lower power units is to use a v-belt or a collection of them in parallel. Some even use a cogged timing type belt & flat drive pulley like on a supercharger or auto camshaft. This can work up to the upper end of micro hydro >100kW but the price will be in belt slip (efficiency), heat and wear. For larger generators there isn’t even this option. For the sake of simplicity and cost belts can work well. You’ll need to shelter them a bit from spray & debris and clean up eraser shavings from time to time, tighten idlers etc.
Gear boxes are the next bet especially for larger systems since they can handle much larger torque loads. Even so higher torque means more gear stress and lubricants can break down much faster due to higher heat. That heat can build up to destruction, take a look at some of the recent wind generator catastrophies caught on you tube, smoke, fires, explosion and total collapse with burning wreckage because a gearbox died after speed brakes failed in high winds. This can happen to any gearbox so sensors and cooling may be required at higher loads. Gears are more efficient, more expensive and might take a bit more maintenance caution vs. belts taking a regular replacement plan.
Ideally your head measure, turbine pitch or diameter, head and jet sizes will be chosen such that your speed differential between the turbine shaft and generator rotational frequency requirement will be small. Remember the generator poles and type also play a role in shaft speeds, sometimes you have to move more than one system variable to optimize.
Jess
PS. I mentioned some wind generator catastrophic failures – Here’s one for you, that’s a full sized van at the bottom of the tower, the generator housing blows a crater is right next to it. That’s Energy in action!
July 4th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Osinowo,
Take a look at my response to Jonathan K. I linked a document on the Power Pal Pico Hydro units, it has design notes too.
Jess
July 4th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Nolan,
Another possibility would be a raft generator with paddlewheel type turbine, undershot wheels need very little immersion. They are about the least efficient designs for a bunch of reasons (All kinetic energy & no head pressure.)
It might fit your needs though if the flow is fast enough & constant enough. Battery & inverter for hydro system power storage will be needed.
Jess
July 4th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Richard,
See my reply to Nolan on this post, regarding raft type units for in stream power production.
Jess
October 19th, 2010 at 2:49 am
hi
I wane find out if i can put a pulley at the end of a powerpal 200W-MHG200HH220V-6.3-6.4l/s to turn something else
October 22nd, 2010 at 9:13 pm
To Jess,
Actualy the life of the generator will not be reduced. The load seems at the generator pint is not unbalanced or 1 ph or 2 ph. The consumer load is sinle phase two line with common terminal. typically we use ballast load to make the system balanced.
In generator point of view, it is always operating at constant three phase power even though the consumer loads were changed. The rest will be dummped to the ballast loads.
The full artical about this method is published in “Jurnal of energy and environment” in malaysia. http://www.uniten.edu.my/Jee/Issue/Volume1.aspx
Tharindu
December 15th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
We have 50 dams in town. All are Micro class. We wish to harness them but have run into an insurmountable road block in FERC regulations. We wish to sell to National Grid but there is no possible way to overcome the cost of all these FERC exemptions. WHAT SHOULD WE DO?
Thanks,
Pete
January 21st, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Working with the University of Hartford and our water co.on conduit hydro.
to provide energy to filtration plants and the grid as follows
3 conduits;
1. 5 mgd @20ft.= 6KW less 1mile -30 inch diam conduit
2. 20mgd@40ft.=48KW less 1 mile-36inch conduit
3. 40mgd @ 40ft.=96KW less 1mile-36 in. conduit
Assuming straight concrete conduit and use of your calculator. Probably 100% eff.???
What micro turbine type to fit ?highest efficiency
Have you heard of vortex shedding bluff body hydro electric generators
developed at the u. of Michigan. Are they applicable.They have less
environmental impact.
Thank You—Marty
January 31st, 2011 at 4:38 am
good day Martin,
I have a property on the banks of the Zambezi river in Zambia, Africa.
the river is flowing at about 1,5 and 2 m/s constant. the flow is forced around a earth head/rock face. Unfortunately the river has a summer rainfall rise of 4-5 meters. what I need is a tube type system secured 1,5 meters below river level at the lowest time of year, against the side of the earth head or rock face. the tube must house all the necessary turbines and ancillaries required to generate electricity. 220v and about 15-25Kv. at a steady 50hrz.. front inflow protection must be provided for floating debris. the only give away will be small bore pipe running up the embankment housing the power cables. the unit must be submerged and out of sight. Do you think a system can be constructed to harness the natural flow/velosity of the water?
thanks and regards
Arthur Crook.